We Love Our NHS

[kingandy]

Yeah that private healthcare option scam they have going in the States sounds like a great idea.

Government-funded healthcare? Won't somebody think of the poor insurance companies?

Comments

[doctor-kaos.livejournal.com]

I work for the poor insurance companies.

We're good thanks.

[kingandy]

Wait, so you agree the current system sucks?

Can you explain why private premiums would rise? Obviously they'd have fewer customers, but at the same time they'd have proportionately fewer payouts.

Finally I'm not sure why you think end of life care is worse than being kicked to the gutter.

[samharber.livejournal.com]

I came across some statistics recently (can't find the source at the mo.) that per person, comprehensive UK healthcare costs less that the US government pays per person on Medicare.

That tells me that the current system is messed up.

I'll try to find the source.

[kingandy]

"Hospitals need money. Doctors and nurses don't work for free, and when they're running on a government stipend that's being paid from a government already massively in debt, you're going to need to raise your prices to cover your ends. Understand?"

Not really. Are you saying the heathcare reform involves paying the hospitals less for things, rather than making the same payments from a government fund? I don't think I was aware of that.

Anyhow, my original point was that the current system sucks, on account of it will kick people to the kerb and watch them die if they can't pay, so I'm glad we agree on that.

[samharber.livejournal.com]

Free markets let people suffer in agony then die.

Socialism for me please.

We Love Our NHS

[zombie-all-star.livejournal.com]

I may be missing some basic maths here.
Citizen A is taxed amount X to pay for government subsidy of health care.
Citizen A also spends amount Y on private health care.
Citizen A stops paying Amount Y and instead relies on government subsidized health care.
Which is higher? Amount X or amount Y?
If X is greater than Y, then Citizen A has been screwed. If Y is greater than X, then Citizen A is getting a better deal.

Is it worth pointing out that some european / scandanavian countries tax their populace by around 50%, and then churn the money back into healthcare, education, science, the arts and welfare.
Those countries are doing really well.

The problem that i see is how the tax dollar is spent. Our politicians have been known to piss it up the wall, as have yours. The government using tax dollar to pay for something its citizenry needs is good. I suspect you will require some form of healthcare in your life. Wouldn't it be great if it were free?

Re: We Love Our NHS

[zombie-all-star.livejournal.com]

Apart from Scandinavia, where the standard of living is exceptionally high, they nations are stable and their economies in the sweet spot.

Whereas this open market idea generates a massive gap between the haves and have nots, socialism has, at its core, the basic idea that you give the people below you a helping hand up, not step on them so you can get higher.

[zombie-all-star.livejournal.com]

Free Market:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

So, let me get this straight... You want to live in a barter society?

Also, I really don't think any of us are advocating bread queues or actual socialism.
I think we're coming from the position of:

We live in a country where we are guaranteed a basic standard of health care by the not unreasonable amount of taxes we pay. We have the option of purchasing additional health insurance should we want to receive treatment sooner, or undergo a medical procedure that may not be immediately required.
It's not perfect, however, nobody dies in gutters (well, not if we can help it).

In fact, I am quite pleased that my taxes go towards helping those that cannot afford it.
I am also quite pleased that I don't have to worry about paying for expensive treatment should I be in an accident, contract cancer or come down with the kind of ailment Gregory House has to diagnose.
I am also quite pleased that my friends and family can receive expensive life saving treatment when they need it.

It is essentially free, as we accept taxes as a fact of life.

Also, question - People who can afford to pay for health care pay, and they pay such a surplus that the doctors can afford to treat those who have not paid (as per your example, above)?
Righto, i'll not pay. It is actually free, because the chumps with jobs and money are paying!
Which will result in those who do pay having to pay more and more as prices sky rocket due to the growing number of freeloaders.

What you have there is an unsustainable economic model.

Why not take a set percentage of everybodys wage (hell, you could even take a bit more from those that really do rake it in) and allocate that to necessary public services, such as healthcare, schools, transport and, I dunno, sanitation.

Do you think that education should only be made available to those who pay?
What about the police providing crime prevention or the army defending only those who have paid up to date
"I'm afraid that you have opted out of national defence. In the event of a terrorist attack, your residence will not be protected."

Re: We Love Our NHS

[samharber.livejournal.com]

Lower prices = cheapest solution for business at expense of patient.

[samharber.livejournal.com]

A free market is one where people can make as much profit as possible. An excellent way to make such profits is to take lots of insurance money off people, then find every weasel way possible to not pay out in the event that the poor sod tries to make a claim. Which, I understand, is rather common.

Corporatism is not real capitalism. It's more socialist in nature, but for businesses.
I fail to understand this. I mean, I understand the individual words, but when combined in this manner they cease to make sense. Some enlightenment wouldn't go amiss.

[samharber.livejournal.com]

I want government to have NOTHING to do with medicine. NOTHING. Government has proven itself to be a fuckup in everything.
So who is going to check that medicines actually work?
Are you happy for a return of snake oil salesmen and psychic healing? It's the free market way after all. These people have the right to sell you their medicine, and if someone dares to say it doesn't work, they'll sue you. In London!
Or if you do have a respectable doctor who can treat you in a scientific manner, what happens then?
"Hi. I've got this tumour in my bowel. It's a fairly simple operation to remove it."
"Oh dear. That's potentially life threatening. It will cost $50,000 dollars"
"But that's ridiculous - it's a simple operation. You can do it in an hour!"
"Actually it's $50,100 now. The longer it takes the more lethal it is. The more lethal it is, the more desperate you are to have it cured. The more desperate you are, the more you'll pay to have it cured."
"But that's ridiculous!"
"$50,200 now. I hate to have to do this to you, but my hands are tied by the free market."

This seemed relevant to the debate

[zombie-all-star.livejournal.com]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8474611.stm

I wonder, Kojiro, do you have health insurance? How comprehensive is it? Do all your friends and family have it?
What would happen if they didn't, and they became ill?

You have consistently agreed with the original tenant of Andy's argument - The current sysyem is broken - however have not really suggested an agenda for positive change other than completely amending the economy and culture of America.

We Love Our NHS

[zombie-all-star.livejournal.com]

Ah. so you want a system that means YOU don't have to pay! I see. we've all been suggesting systems where the cost is spread equally amongst the populace, you want system where only the rich pay, and the rest exist on charity. Very enlightened self interest. This is exactly why the state gets involved, because the average working joe is enraged that they're being charged more to cover people who aren't paying. I would liken it to being in a collision with an uninsured driver.

We Love Our NHS

[zombie-all-star.livejournal.com]

Based entirely upon the arguments you have been putting forward during this debate. namely that the old system worked because medical staff still treated those who could not afford it due to having surplus cash from those who could. i've now developed the opinion, based on everything you've put forth so far, that your argument ultimately supports your current predicament, and has not been formulated with the greater good in mind.

Re: We Love Our NHS

[kingandy]

I wish I had your faith in human kindness and generosity.