Asking the Internet for Legal Advice
Aug. 1st, 2009 06:14 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
kingandyBack in October, when we went to pay depoit for the new (rental) flat, the estate agent, Sanderson James, offered us a choice. We could put down six weeks' rent as deposit, or put five weeks' down and use money from the the sixth week to pay for contents insurance. Fair enough, says we, it seems a reasonable amount of moneys and at least with the insurance being provided by the estate agent you know that it's definitely valid on the property in question. Saves us sorting it out ourselves.
In January we were burgled. Oh well, says we, at least we were insured. A claim was duly filed and (over the following months) proof of ownership of the majority of items provided.
Last month (July) a Loss Adjuster was sent to inspect the premises. Not, as we assumed, to verify ownership of said goods, but in fact to inspect the locks.
Today we received a letter from said Adjuster informing us that following his report, the insurance company had concluded that the lock fitted to the door did not meet the minimum standard specified in their policy, and as such the policy was not valid.
So the situation is this: Sanderson James sold us an insurance policy that was not valid on the property we were renting from them.
Pop quiz: What's our next step?
Our first thought is naturally legal action. I'm not 100% convinced it would work, though. Technically, as insurance brokers, they did let us read the policy before we signed it, and it might then be our responsibility to ensure that the estate agents kept the property up to scratch (even though they're the same people). But surely, there's a level of implication that the person selling you a policy on the flat you're renting from them is selling you a valid policy? Wouldn't it be their responsibility to make sure the flat matches the minimum security level before they try and sell it to you? Is that not, in fact, a scam? Or at the very least, criminal negligence. It's sale of an item not fit for use.
Ant is planning to consult his family solicitor but any additional insight would be greatly appreciated.
FWIW, they didn't actually give us a copy of the policy after we signed it. I'm pretty sure that at least is breaching some regulation or other.
Anyone have any experience with legal issues of this nature?
In January we were burgled. Oh well, says we, at least we were insured. A claim was duly filed and (over the following months) proof of ownership of the majority of items provided.
Last month (July) a Loss Adjuster was sent to inspect the premises. Not, as we assumed, to verify ownership of said goods, but in fact to inspect the locks.
Today we received a letter from said Adjuster informing us that following his report, the insurance company had concluded that the lock fitted to the door did not meet the minimum standard specified in their policy, and as such the policy was not valid.
So the situation is this: Sanderson James sold us an insurance policy that was not valid on the property we were renting from them.
Pop quiz: What's our next step?
Our first thought is naturally legal action. I'm not 100% convinced it would work, though. Technically, as insurance brokers, they did let us read the policy before we signed it, and it might then be our responsibility to ensure that the estate agents kept the property up to scratch (even though they're the same people). But surely, there's a level of implication that the person selling you a policy on the flat you're renting from them is selling you a valid policy? Wouldn't it be their responsibility to make sure the flat matches the minimum security level before they try and sell it to you? Is that not, in fact, a scam? Or at the very least, criminal negligence. It's sale of an item not fit for use.
Ant is planning to consult his family solicitor but any additional insight would be greatly appreciated.
FWIW, they didn't actually give us a copy of the policy after we signed it. I'm pretty sure that at least is breaching some regulation or other.
Anyone have any experience with legal issues of this nature?
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no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 05:58 pm (UTC)Definately consult a solicitor (or CAB) as I'm guessing that you'd have had to sign the insurance document before you actually get the keys to the property and therefore be able to inspect the lock(s) and if you then didn't get a copy of that, how could you check?
The person selling the insurance policy set themselves up as an insurance advisor and sold you something that was not suitable on a propery they are responsible for and yes, I'd agree it would be their responsibility to make sure the property meets the minimum standards before renting it to you.
Can I query - what kind of lock "didn't meet minimum standard"?
Good luck, however you want to play it!
no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 06:19 pm (UTC)The policy didn't specifically mention mortis locks - it just says "locks meeting British Standards" - but a quick squrf of the internets always brings up "British standards" in assosiation with "five-lever mortis"...
Ed's girlfriend says....
Date: 2009-08-01 06:37 pm (UTC)I'm toying with mentioning some sort of act to do with 'mis-selling' or 'mis-representation', but I really don't know enough about it.
Also, and I've said this many, many times before, and I'm always ignored because other people who don't work in the legal sector *always* know best, - but the CAB are utterly useless.
YES, they *used* to be very helpful and have advisers who knew the law, and you could just pop in and see them, but NOW their budgets have been hit so heavily that, if you can get an appointment in the next two weeks, or at all, they will listen to what you have to say, smile, nod, agree that you might have a case, and give you a list of local solicitors who might be able to help. Which will be out of date. And inaccurate.
In short - don't bother with the CAB unless you want them to help you fill in a very specific form to claim a state benefit - that's all they're good for now, and they're not very good at that :(
Just go see a solicitor straight away – most of them will give you 30 minutes for free.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 06:39 pm (UTC)Re: Ed's girlfriend says....
Date: 2009-08-01 08:50 pm (UTC)Re: Ed's girlfriend says....
Date: 2009-08-01 08:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 08:58 pm (UTC)On the face of it, it sounds iffy, but the devil is always in the detail.
Unfortunately, I suspect that, legally, they were not responsible for checking whether the locks were suitable - that responsibility is (nominally) on the proposer, i.e. you.
You should have, at minimum, copies of the following:
- the insurance policy document
- a Key Facts document
- the schedule of insurance
- exactly one of a proposal form, or a statement of fact (the latter is more likely these days)
If you signed anything, it would be the proposal form/SOF.
If you are missing any of them, demand copies, and scream blue murder if they don't supply them. Be aware they can legitimately charge you non-trivial sums (e.g. £20-25) for copies of the schedule/proposal/SOF. Key Facts/Policy wording should be free, though. (reasoning: the former are custom docs, with your specific details on - keeping records of them is work, they need to find them in the system to supply copies, so they can charge "reasonable fees" to do so. Policy docs and Key facts, OTOH, are standardized, so they should be trivial to provide)
They should have given you copies of all of them when you bought the policy. If they didn't, and start trying to charge, or start charging for the Policy document, kick up a fuss (IIRC, legally, they HAVE to give you at least access to a copy of the policy document if you're trying to buy, and refusing a copy to a policy holder would be looked upon rather dimly by the regulators) If you're in a hurry, you *may* be able to get copies of the key facts/policy direct from the insurer's own website (e.g. Aviva has its home insurance docs linked on the bottom right of this page: http://www.aviva.co.uk/home-insurance/)
Re: suitable locks, the usual requirement is something like "five-lever mortice deadlocks on all external doors, and key-operated window locks on all ground level windows and accessible upper floor windows" These aren't necessary to get insurance (though some insurers may refuse, others will provide cover, even in
moss sideRusholme, where I used to live) but they will typically get a discount.The key here is how the insurance was sold. During that process, did they specifically ask you about the locks?
If they asked whether the property had suitable locks while selling the insurance (and they probably should have specifically asked about "five-lever mortise locks meeting BS3621", not just "locks"), and you said yes it has them, you're probably stuffed.
If they DIDN'T ask the question, then the piece of paper you signed should have something on it about the locks. If it says "yes the property has suitable locks", then you're not in good shape either, because you signed a bit of paper saying "yes it has locks" when it didn't. If it says "no the property doesn't have locks" OR makes no statement about the locks at all, then you may be in better shape.
Next port of call is the schedule of insurance. Fine-tooth-comb it for mentions of locks. Look for endorsements in particular (though note that it's entirely normal for there to not be any). Again, any assertion that there are locks may be problematic if they gave you this document at the start of the policy (which they should have).
If there's no mention of locks anywhere in the paperwork that you had at the start of the policy, then you can probably get 'em in hot water for mis-selling. If the only mention of locks is in the post-sale documentation (Schedule, Policy Wording), it *might* still be worth a punt, but ask a lawyer about that.
[to be continued]
no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 08:58 pm (UTC)Re: dispute/complaints process, your first port of call should be the people who sold the insurance. Note that, legally, *IF* they're an insurance broker (they may not be) they're supposed to be on YOUR side, not the insurer's. A quick butchers at their website makes no obvious reference to insurance, nor being FSA registered. At a minimum, ask them for their FSA registration number for personal lines insurance, then look them up here: http://www.fsa.gov.uk/register/. If they won't give you it, kick up a fuss. If they don't have one, set the lawyers on 'em, they're screwed. (Note: check any existing paperwork you have. I'd be surprised if it's not on there somewhere)
I had a quick play, and it looks like this is them: http://www.fsa.gov.uk/register/firmBasicDetails.do?sid=144372. "Appointed representative" is not good news; I think it means they're tied to a single insurer, and thus may not be a "broker" (and therefore not legally on your side).
If they're no good, you want the insurance ombudsman.
From the description above, I think your only real hope is that there was a screw-up in the sales process. If they did the sale by-the-book, and the paperwork is in order, you're probably screwed :(
no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 10:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 11:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 11:26 pm (UTC)No, there was no discussion of the property (they were more familiar with it than us... We hadn't even had the keys at this stage). They sold us an off-the-shelf, generic tenants' contents policy. As I recall from my read-through (we got a copy after the break-in, in order to send it to the insurers - which was itself a warning sign), it had all sorts of conditional clauses, like "if you have an alarm you agree to switch it on when you leave the house" etc. Also it mentioned the stuff about ground floor windows, though it's a first floor flat...
no subject
Date: 2009-08-02 12:24 am (UTC)Out of interest, is there a law/rule somewhere that says a rented property should have locks to British Standards...?
no subject
Date: 2009-08-02 10:20 am (UTC)Re: Ed's girlfriend says....
Date: 2009-08-02 10:59 am (UTC)Re: Ed's girlfriend says....
Date: 2009-08-02 11:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-02 03:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-02 03:34 pm (UTC)Perfectly normal. Similarly the ground/first floor bit. Like I said upthread, the policy document itself is typically a standardized, print-run-of-thousands, thing. It'll be worded accordingly. The Schedule, which is unique-per-policy, exists specifically for the purpose of reconciling that standard document to an individual policy.
Whoa. At this point, combined with the lack of paperwork, the component of my brain that knows things about FSA compliance regarding the sales of personal lines insurance is having small furry offspring.
As I mentioned above, normal practice is that the Proposer (i.e. You) is responsible for declarations regarding the state of the building. If the people selling the policy KNOW that you haven't even seen the building, they shouldn't be selling you the policy, full stop. They *might* be able to wriggle out of that if it was a high-powered, cover-everything-within-reason policy, but you've already discovered that's not the case.
Wut? That is so arse-about-face it's untrue. The underwriters should not have needed a copy of the policy (they're the ones who wrote it, in theory).
To me, the major alarm bells here are:
- they sold you contents insurance for a building that you hadn't even seen
- they didn't give you any paperwork for the policy at all
From my knowledge of HOWTO transact UK Personal Lines Insurance, both of those are just WRONG. This is not how things should be done.
Based on what you've said here, they basically mis-sold you a policy which did not cover you, and failed to provide the industry-standard paperwork that would have let you find out that it didn't cover you. Surprisingly enough, that's not entirely how the industry regulator says these things should work.
Their defense is probably going to be that you (knowingly or otherwise) lied to them when applying for the insurance. You say you signed a piece of paper. If you don't have a copy, demand one (though note my earlier comments about how they can legitimately cahrge for this).
If you signed it before you'd even seen the property (which sounds like the case) and they KNEW that you hadn't seen the property, then you might be able to challenge the legal validity of that document - which will be relevant if they start waving it in court. They probably will, if it comes to that, because that piece of paper is basically their main evidence. If they can't produce a copy of it, I believe they're the ones in hot water.
At this point, I'd start digging out tenancy documentation, too - if their defense evidence says you signed the insurance application (claiming intimate knowledge of the property) on the 12th of X, and the tenancy document says you didn't get access to the property until the 15th of X, you can probably make them look rather silly.
To conclude: get thee to a lawyer. IMO (and IANAL, of course) you have a strong case for mis-selling.
(in case you haven't already started, keep copies of EVERYTHING from here on in)
no subject
Date: 2009-08-02 03:44 pm (UTC)In the land of UK Personal Lines Insurance (i.e. "normal" domestic insurance sold to average-joe-public) I don't think it works like that. If something like this is resolved in favour of the policyholder, I believe the insurer gets to pay the claim anyway, then they (potentially) sue the people who sold the insurance, who end up footing the bill.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-03 09:43 am (UTC)Zero paperwork, though, and a definite sense that they should have known the building didn't match the policy. I mean, you go to rent a property and they offer to insure the property at the same time, there's a kind of assumption that your property would then be insured...
Thanks immensely for all your advice on this, BTW. You are a star.